Sitting facing the palace of Federigo da Montefeltro in the bright afternoon sun, sipping “water with gaz” and hooking into a rare WiFi spot after my latest two-hour hit of Madonna with Child paintings, not a car in sight on this elegant cobbled street and plaza.
It looks almost like La Citta Ideale, the painting I saw saw inside that depicts an elegant city square, completely empty.
That’s of course been the situation in every historic town and city we’ve visited: Volterra, Siena, Perugia, Gubbio, Deruta, and now Urbino. It’s almost enough to make you buy into the thesis behind this recent NY Times story that one of my faithful correspondents sent me, detailing the way European cities are making life difficult for drivers. (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/27/science/earth/27traffic.html?emc=eta1)
The problem with all of this, though, is that this kind of car obstructionism — here in Europe or even back home in the Americas — is that it’s limited to a very restricted area: the historic and tourist-oriented centers where it almost makes a kind of business sense to ban cars, as a way of enhancing the city as spectacle and resort.
But, as I’ve written before here, the amount of land consecrated to asphalt and the creation of ugly suburbs and sprawling industrial zones is something that Europeans excel at. I’ve driven through areas of Italy on this trip that make the lower part of King George Highway look like the Champs Elysees. Clusters of big-box stores and plastics factories next to a super-highway and a tangle of roads that serve the new suburbs sprouting up around any Italian city that’s not completely dead. The most recent vivid example for me were the valleys that intersect at Perugia, the north-south valley dominated by the E45 highway and the east-west highway that runs through the valley below Perugia.
Of course, Perugia itself bans cars in the centre and, like many Italian cities, even imposes fines on anyone who tries to drive in the zone pedonale (pedestrian zone). But there are any number of roads and car parks around it, to serve everyone who drives up to the walls and then gets out in order to have their pristine pedestrian experience.
What I’m looking to see is the precedent-setting city mayor who doesn’t just make life difficult for cars in the compact and tourist-oriented urban centres that are now the identity-makers for the city, but the mayor who tries to tackle the issues of suburban road-building. I haven’t seen anyone in Europe tackling this in a serious way, except possibly for French president Nicolas Sarkozy’s competition two years ago for urban planners to come up with a way of creating a transit system and urban plan for Paris’s outer suburbs.
In the meantime, I will stroll back through the car-free streets of Urbino, enjoying my pedestrian experience before I retrieve my car from the carpark just outside the city walls and head on out along the superhighway to Fano and the Adriatic, coping with the inevitable traffic around me.
86 responses so far ↓
1 Lewis N. Villegas // Jul 8, 2011 at 8:12 pm
I’m with Alan Jacobs. Asked about the bike helmet issue at his recent lecture in Vancouver he didn’t relent, “Wear the helmet” was his advice. Buckle the seat belt. Wear sunglasses or shields on motorcycles (’cause of the bumble bees), etc.
Jessy #45, Bill #46
There is an answer that might work for us. Implementing BRT and/or LRT takes away road space from cars (2.5 lanes or so) but returns many times more trip capacity. Implementation of transit can be accompanied by redesign of the new transit street. Congestion, at say 8,000 or 12,000 vehicles per day, might be used as a gentle encouragement to use transit for the commuter trips. Off peak, curb side parking might give merchants added business.
But really, what we have to educate about is that this kind of implementation should be done hand-in-hand with residential intensification (high-density, human-scale of course). That means that merchants need to be shown that as many as 15,000 people will be living within easy walking distance of their cash register. That requires a new paradigm in retail, where you neighbours are your best customers, and your shop keepers often more reliable than your best friends.
If we step outside the downtown peninsula to consider Broadway, Mt. Pleasant and the Historic Quartiers, that kind of density is not there right now. However, as we intensify there is no reason why the feel of Broadway, Main Street, and Hastings Street (to draw an alternative horse shoe shape) might well resemble that of Robson, Denman and Davie.
That would happen after transit implantation, street revitalization, and some amount of residential intensification. Once more some of the best examples to draw from are already around us.
Bill is correct to point to Quebec Citadel and Granville Island as Canadian examples that work where we mix cars and pedestrians safely because the places are designed to function like pedestrian priority zones.
2 Chris Keam // Jul 8, 2011 at 9:59 pm
My experience on Granville Island is mostly cars traveling too fast for a place full of tourists and children and also failing to yield to pedestrians waiting to cross the road, esp at the entrance to the Island where the Seawall crosses the road. If that’s pedestrian priority, the design isn’t working.
3 Everyman // Jul 8, 2011 at 10:28 pm
@Chris Keam 34
Ah yes, that old argument. Take a look at the automobile of 100 years ago compared to that of today, and then do the same for bikes. Today’s car is nearly unrecognizable compared to its forebear: antilock brakes, stability control, airbags, navi systems, rear cameras etc.
And yet the bike remains virtually unchanged in terms of safety equipment.
And when one piece of safety equipment is suggested, cyclists complain like it is the end of the world. Why is that? Auto owners have had to bear the ownership costs of all that equipment as much of it is government mandated. Why won’t cyclists do the same?
I’m anxiously awaiting your defense of that other majority of cyclists, those who don’t carry any type of lighting.
4 Chris Keam // Jul 8, 2011 at 11:05 pm
Interesting that only one of the safety improvements noted is exclusively for the protection of occupants (airbags). The others are there to protect other road users, spurred in no small part by the continuing unacceptable death toll exacted by excessively powered vehicles driving by individuals with insufficient training.
Interesting also that seatbelts are mandatory in many places around the world, yet helmet laws are the exception, esp. in those countries with lots of cyclists.
At some point one has to take a look at the facts and accept that laws can and should be changed if they aren’t achieving their intended goal(s).
Mandatory helmets while cycling, but no mandatory wearing of lifejackets while boating? It’s a double standard IMO and I question why we allow one group freedom of choice while the other must conform to a law that isn’t working.
5 Chris Keam // Jul 8, 2011 at 11:10 pm
“I’m anxiously awaiting your defense of that other majority of cyclists, those who don’t carry any type of lighting.”
Don’t presume that I would do so.
Darkwads
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Darkwad
Too bad all these safety conscious folks don’t take a cue from the playa people and heckle the drivers who ignore cel phone laws and endanger others, instead of complaining about cyclists making a choice regarding their own wellbeing (helmets, not lights).
6 Chris Keam // Jul 8, 2011 at 11:11 pm
“excessively powered vehicles driving by individuals with insufficient training.”
driven by. Sorry for the typo.
7 Glissando Remmy // Jul 8, 2011 at 11:35 pm
The Thought of The Night
” QED – Quod Erat Demonstrandum or… ‘what was to be demonstrated’ ”
Gerry #50,
I have never came across this Riotson scripted recital before, the first part, I mean.
This is the past.
Here is my syntax for a theorem in the Riotson/ Solomon/ Vision/ City Hall scheme:
Theorem
“A group of American ex-pat leeches from up North on the Cortes Island, want to diversify ( Renew All 🙂 ) their portfolio of “green” businesses (Enerpro & comp) in BC, and cash in on the new Green Racket, starting with Vancouver… their Pied a Terre. A puppet is needed, thick skin, and lots of Bull.”
Proof 1
One self appointed guru, seer of the future, approve of his own 500 years plan, in the applause of his followers. All they need is a puppet.
Proof 2
Lookout for puppet ends in Vancouver Fairview. Puppet found. Approve funding for campaign. Campaign successful. Start collecting.
Proof 3
Starting @ 0.30 min in the video…re. Mayor’s Vision for Vancouver:
” extremely competitive tax regime here…we within a few years will be the lowest corporate tax rate combined in the G8… we like to be the green capital of finance in the world as well… the Switzerland of green finance if you want…”
If P1 is true and if P2 is true and if P3 is true, then as each step applies an inference rule, the truth of our theorem is established…QED.
However.
I would like to end with the present time:
To date, out of the 20,000 green jobs proposed… at the present we have … N/A.
NET BUSINESS GAIN for the City of Vancouver:
Chicken Coops and Sanctuary CHECK
“Trial'” Bike Lanes CHECK
Bee Hives… almost CHECK
Wheat lawns CHECK
Community Gardens CHECK
Incompetent Senior Management CHECK
…
NET BUSINESS LOSS for the City of Vancouver:
Competent Senior Management CHECK
Destruction of the Downtown Vancouver due to Mayor’s Foolishness CHECK
Businesses relocation outside Vancouver CHECK
Olympic Village White Mastodon CHECK
…
Soooooo…
We live in Vancouver QEF – Quod Erat Faciendum or… “what was to have been done”… and this keeps us busy.
8 Roger Kemble // Jul 9, 2011 at 7:51 am
Bill Mc @ # 46
“Although cars get inside the walls there, there is clearly a distinction between the old and new cities, among other things, with respect to car accessibility and dominance.”
Yes, a clear distinction. La Vieux-Quebec is surrounded by walls and escarpments making access restricted. Essentially, the only vehicular entrance is Place d’Youville and that, in the tourist season, is a veritable over crowded parking lot.
It’s still subject to the shallow abuse of the tourists who really are just looking for a place to eat and come home with brownie points!
One of the great attractions in Vieux Ville, though, is the panoramic model of the Battle of the Heights of Abraham after which the Quebecois won a decisive victory at the Battle of Saint Foi (our history books keep that under wraps). The oncoming winter allowed the red coats to escape and the rest is history . . .
Once outside the perimeter it’s the same old same old. ”Basse Ville”, the erstwhile docks, is a veritable parking lot with the usual ersatz tourist distractions.
North of Riviere Saint-Charles could be Burquitlam with a Joual accent!
So, all our tourists will return, their 10% discounted peregrinations, after the summer: Frances full of “La Dolce Vita” never really being able to square the discrepancies between her brief masquerade as Pompeia and picking up the groceries.
We will never realize that ”Quartiers” are essentially a legislative issue not pretty pictures.
Urbanism will come into focus when the community controls the community (and, above all, have the respectful self-image to respect itself). We can do the JJ jig, with our notebook and measuring tape, all we like to no avail.
JJ subsequently wrote about that but, unfortunately, her later tomes seem to have been put on the back shelf.
9 The Fourth Horseman // Jul 9, 2011 at 12:19 pm
Common sense, stated elegantly.
We can’t talk you into running for a position at City Hall, can we, Glissy?
If not for elected position, I would gladly and without hesitation, nominate you for ‘People Laureate’. Duties: Hold up a mirror to our electeds. Make mischief. Stir the rabble.
As Shakespeare might have put it, were he into political sloganeering:
“Vote for Glissy! He gives a Puck!”
10 Jean // Jul 9, 2011 at 1:17 pm
M. Geller: “One other thing…although I did not come across many ‘scramble’ intersections that give pedestrians the right of way in all directions at the same time…I did notice in Seville that the traffic lights take much longer to change than what we are used to.
I can’t help but think someone has done some research and determined that given how long it takes for many motorists to stop checking their email at red lights and get moving once the lights change, it makes sense to change the lights less frequently.”
I totally disagree with this -am living in Calgary at this time. Downtown. Their traffic light change wait times are way too long. It’s just laughable when the roads aren’t heavily occupied 80% of the time anyway, and one is waiting for light to change. Believe me as a pedestrian and cyclist, it’s highly noticeable. And in -20 to -30 degreee C winters, it is just absurd.
This city also does not have hardly any pedestrian/cyclist traffic light push buttons.
Yes, we experience some great European downtown historic and pedestrianized cores/plazas in: southern Germany, Strasbourg (France), Prague, Copenhagen and Malmo.
While in North America, we could never replicate the centuries of architectural richness and variety that provide an additonal magnet for both locals and tourists, it might be useful to think what we do have now in certain areas for various Canadian cities.
I don’t totally agree that underground shopping malls are a bad thing if they are constructed carefully in areas in relation to public/green civic spaces that encourage pedestrian, cycling traffic and public meeting spots/social activities.
Example: In downtown Toronto on Queen St. East by Bay Street to University Avenue, that is probably a better example where there is convergence of shopping (underground shopping mall, the Bay above, etc.), subway entrances/exits, a historic courthouse (Upper Canada vintage) with little parkette and cobblestones (tourst attraction. I know I used to work there), Nathan Phillips Square with space for public activity and free flowing human traffic plus across the street another historic building –old city hall now another courthouse. Streetcar runs through there and there are bike routes along there.
Yes cars too. Crowded with tourists and locals….but it is our North American version of perhaps history and contemporary life converging there.
There are times we have to relook at some of our cities in new eyes.
11 Bill McCreery // Jul 10, 2011 at 4:47 pm
Good thoughts Lewis 51, and Roger 58, although Roger, while I see the essence of what you’re saying has validity, I do not share all your cynicism. As an eternal optimist, I prefer to build on and improve what we have. And, some of what we have in Vancouver is not to bad, a good place to start making it better.
What concerns me now is that the planning and development occurring in Vancouver is going backward, not forward.
12 Lewis N. Villegas // Jul 10, 2011 at 9:59 pm
“…. the planning and development occurring in Vancouver is going backward, not forward.”
Bill 61
So often they dance to the same tune. One of the key steps in the charrettes is to meet with a representative group of the development industry and have an open and honest session where real issues are on the table. We ask about the sticky wickets and the things (like parking) that are getting in the way of building better projects.
Few people realize that one of the most important aspects of the Form Based Code, the urban design component of the community plan, is that is ‘shows’ the outcome, or what the place will look like at full build out.
If, as was the case in the 3-year Mt. Pleasant planning process—where this brand of urbanism was not engaged—a 22-storey tower shows up at the final public meeting, then all the locals have to do is point to the drawings and say:
“It doesn’t look like one of these.”
They can do it at any point in time after that as well. The problem with doing urban design one site at the time is that we cannot plan the outcome. We cannot make a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts because we don’t know what the parts will be.
If properly executed the Urban Code will have the pro-forma for the build out, so the developers will have been already alerted that they can still do good trade within the purview of the Urban Code.
The most difficult thing to understand about ‘good’ urbanism is just how bland and simple it is… and how much delight and livability can be forged from just a few simple parts set out to achieve well defined results. Things that can be established well ahead of time in consensus driven, public consultation process.
13 Michelle // Jul 11, 2011 at 1:05 pm
lewis #62
You left out the most important part in your commentary. The MONEY. The developers are in it for that…THE MONEY. They don’t care about the ‘vibrant community’ they are building. Pish talk. Open houses are more like a dog and pony shows. Then it goes to the planning, UDPanel, DPBoard, Council, bla, bla, hoards of people awaiting to speak against the said projects, and then it gets approved cause the Vision/COPE/ NPA needs the developer’s campaign contribution. Yeah the charrettes are good in theory, you can show that to a bunch of students out for coffee and cookies. Look son this is what we could have build!
Vision needs to go (Robertson included) – the little mountain coop was demolished under their watch, during one of the biggest hole in Vancopuver’s housing affordability. There is a hole in the ground right now. That is simply criminal.
Toderian the Director of Planning, LOL needs to go as well he is useless.
14 Higgins // Jul 11, 2011 at 5:35 pm
Oh, Glissy #57 I never understood the QED… now I do! An act of beauty that was…what you wrote. Teachers might want to introduce this in the 4th Grade curriculum. Our kids will have to start learning about the creeps we have in politics from a young age so they would now how to avoid them in the future. Bravo, GR! I totally support The Fourth Horseman’s #59 motion… Glissando Remmy for People’s Laureate. Sounds good to me! 🙂
15 Lewis N. Villegas // Jul 12, 2011 at 12:16 am
“Yeah the charrettes are good in theory, you can show that to a bunch of students out for coffee and cookies. Look son this is what we could have build!”
Michelle 63
It is about the money for the developers because they are in a competitive economy. A dog eat dog world where you are quite right, it’s the money that matters.
The current political system is not much removed. In order to win a seat at Council, candidates have to choose: do they or do they not accept developer contributions? Most do and the results are more or less what you speak about.
However, the charrette process does work in other jurisdictions, and has never been used in our city as a municipal initiative. Not yet, anyway.
In South Fraser Lands, for example, it was the developer that brought in the King of the New Urbanism, Andrés Duany, to do the charrette, the urban code, and the whole-kit-and-kaboudle.
We are agitating to bring that to the neighbourhood planning level. We think that in the right context the developers will join in. I’ve seen it happen in the U.S.
No reason to think we can’t do it here.
16 Roger Kemble // Jul 12, 2011 at 5:40 am
What was that you said, Lewis @ #65?
“ . . . it was the developer that brought in the King of the New Urbanism, Andrés Duany, to do the charrette . . .”
King of the New Urbanism. WHAT!
Trevor Boddy exposed the Duany cult for what it is at southlands: the debate has been raging for many years – the viability of farming, the formerly called the Spetifore lands, were more than 8200 acres.
Much reduced these desparately needed farm lands are still under threat . . .
http://www.thecanadian.org/k2/item/608-southlands-video-debacle-raises-questions-damien-gillis
. . . and childlike you spew your stuff. It is 2010 Lewis: farmland is disappearing.
You made a fool of yourself in Nanaimo. You made a fool of yourself at SUNN. A charrette is not an opportunity for Lewis to strut and pout like a three year old: you just do not get it!
You are an absolute hero-worshipping oleaginous bloody fool. You insist upon sticking your nose into areas you have no expertise and no knowledge.
Why don’t you just cool it for a while and grow up?
17 Michael Geller // Jul 12, 2011 at 7:07 am
Roger, I think you have crossed the line with your mean spirited criticism of Lewis as written in post 66. It is not necessary. I am sure I am not alone in being disturbed by its tone and content.
You are also incorrect with respect to the Spetifore lands. They were never ‘more than 8200 acres’. They were once approximately 753 acres until a portion was sold to Metro Vancouver for parkland.
The plan that was developed through the Duany Charrette for this property may well lead to an innovative mix of agriculture and urbanism.
18 Roger Kemble // Jul 12, 2011 at 7:24 am
Michael @ #67
You were not at the Nanaimo debacle.
Read this . . .
http://www.thecanadian.org/k2/item/608-southlands-video-debacle-raises-questions-damien-gillis
. . . carefully again and watch the video.
I have lost patience with self-seeking developers such as yourself who have nothing to contribute but nice words hiding bad policy.
19 Roger Kemble // Jul 12, 2011 at 7:32 am
Michael @ #67
PS there are some pretty scary things going on . . .
http://theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/
and you seem to be in your own selfish little heaven, totally oblivious . . .
MYOB!
20 Roger Kemble // Jul 12, 2011 at 8:29 am
Michael @ #67
. . . mean spirited . . .
So you go the Spain on a house swap: lucky you . . .
And you frolic around the bazaars and parades. Lucky, lucky you . . .
In the meantime all hell is breaking out around you. Good Canadians are trying, risking their lives, to help the beleaguered people of Gaza. People are loosing their livelihoods.
And what do you do?
You complain about the graffiti!
And you don’t even have the good grace to learn the language to understand what it has to say.
And you have the impertinence to call me mean spirited!
21 MB // Jul 12, 2011 at 8:58 am
May I pop in for a sec, boys?
I’d just like to say that I value the comments by each of the three tenors, Roger, Lewis and Michael. I may not agree with the riff and tenor of the tenors, and they can be rather disharmonious together, but that doesn’t mean one or the other should step off the stage.
Their contribution to the idea of urbanism, though wrought and tempered with angst, formulaic pretentions and singular experience, have helped me (and I’m sure other readers) to refine my own ideas of this worthy idea, not because I swallow what any one of them says hook, line and stinker, but because juxtaposed they bounce off each other and orbit the truth like free radicals.
Roger, the green grey Strait and a stiff breeze becons right about now, eh?
22 Roger Kemble // Jul 12, 2011 at 9:09 am
MB @ #71
Yes, I’m planning to cruise through Dodds, down Trincomoli channel to Porlier, across the Straits to Point Roberts, were my daughter has a place, and chill out for a while . . . then a night in False Creek watching the city go to bed . . .
beginning of August weather permitting . . .
23 Bill // Jul 12, 2011 at 12:27 pm
@ Roger 70
“Good Canadians are trying, risking their lives, to help the beleaguered people of Gaza.”
While not on topic, your comment is very revealing as it reflects an individual who, at best, would be described as “gullible”. These “good” Canadians are worthy successors to those who Stalin called “useful idiots”
24 spartikus // Jul 12, 2011 at 3:53 pm
9 out of 10 dentists agree: There is no faster way to derail a non-Israel/Palestine internet discussion than to bring up Israel/Palestine.
Remember kids, be like Gold Five and “Stay on target!“
25 Higgins // Jul 12, 2011 at 8:40 pm
Bill #73
“Good Canadians are trying, risking their lives, to help the beleaguered people of Gaza.”…said Roger. (yeah not on topic but in all honesty the posts and comments on Fabula as of lately are forceps-ed out, not healthy IMHO)
And he is right on, Sir!
The bullshit perpetrated by the Israelis has gone for long enough. I for one am too tired of their disinformation.
spartikus,
when the topic starts to smell change the subject. Typical …
26 Bill // Jul 13, 2011 at 9:14 am
Higgins #75
Obviously not all of the useful idiots are on the ships.
27 Mira // Jul 13, 2011 at 12:51 pm
To Bill re. #73 #76
Roger and Higgins are some of the commentators that sometimes make sense sometimes they don’t. This time they do. You have your head to deep up yours, Bill. Nobody buys your kind of crap anymore, where I come from, they don’t. And BTW how did that Noah Ark work out for you?
28 spartikus // Jul 13, 2011 at 1:29 pm
And Gold Five goes down in flames.
Just like the movie.
29 a layman // Jul 13, 2011 at 4:04 pm
I must admit, as a concerned citizen, I read Mr. Villegas’ posts and thought he made some very good suggestions regarding improving the current planning process. Of course there is an issue of developers beholden to profits rather than good design, and politicians who need to encourage the developers to make big profits so they can donate to their campaigns.
But if the current planning process is so skewed and causing community groups to form and sign petitions 11,000 strong, why not at least try something different (like a charrette) that might be more transparent and accountable? If I were a civic politician who got elected on 50,000 votes, a petition of 11,000 against my re-zoning policy from just one neighbourhood would have me quaking in my boots… Surely, no amount of developer donations are going to counter that level of public outrage? There are many more than just one neighbourhood that appear to be completely fed up with what’s been going on in the development/planning community over the past few years.
That’s where, Mr. Kemble, you are really confusing me. Admittedly, I know nothing of Duany or Spetifore or Nanaimo. Clearly, you don’t like Mr. Villegas (and I agree with M. Geller that you have crossed way over the line — please argue against facts and debating points, and not resort to infantile personal attacks). But, you are clearly some sort of expert, so, can you tell us exactly what you don’t like about the actual planning process Mr. Villegas is suggesting be implemented? Again, it sounds quite sensible to me (a layman), or at least, I don’t see the harm in trying this different planning method?
I’d really like to understand this better because it appears that the current planning process has become horribly corrupted, and many people believe the results are doing real harm to Vancouver’s neighbourhoods. MB, Geller, McCreery and other commentators on this blog also appear to be experts in this field, and so your comments/critiques on this would also be very welcome. Thanks very much!
30 Bill // Jul 14, 2011 at 10:29 am
Mira, you might have a different take on the subject if you expanded your reading list beyond the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”.
31 Ned // Jul 14, 2011 at 4:54 pm
I agree with spartikus. We need a change of topic.
But then I have to say this to Bill#79… because I went and googled his recommended reading for Mira #77, hmmm, in all honesty buddy you are a ‘useful’ one! Maybe you should do some reading yourself. But instead of taking your pound of manure from propaganda sites catering to both sides, read some real time reporting from some independent, respectable papers or news agencies on what happens there in Gaza. As it turns out the ever professional victims are doing on to others what others have done to them. Nice try Bill. 🙁
32 Bill // Jul 14, 2011 at 5:09 pm
Actually, Ned, I didn’t recommend any specific reading for Mira so I do not know what you googled or what you are referring to.
33 Joe Just Joe // Jul 15, 2011 at 8:40 am
Frances, come back and save us.
34 Michael Geller // Jul 15, 2011 at 8:53 am
JJJ…I’m entirely with you…
I am also delighted to report that Frances IS coming back since she’s scheduled to be on the CKNW Civic Affairs Panel which resumes next Tuesday at 9 am.
35 Bill McCreery // Jul 16, 2011 at 1:25 am
Roger 72, if you’re in Van please get in touch. It would be good to reconnect face to face Roger.
And, I concur with the comments of MB 71. There are indeed interesting ideas exchanged here. And, one thing I’ve learned, I trust, is that no-one is always right, but by gosh, there’s a stimulating exchange. And by and large we have to thank Frances for that. Her style of laying out her thoughts of the day are sometimes perplexing as to her motivation, but she has the unique ability to attract persons with divergent ideas and perspectives who, by and large, communicate at relatively civilized levels and certainly provoke further thought for us all. Thank you all.
36 Roger Kemble // Jul 16, 2011 at 7:11 am
Bill @ #84
Yes, God bless Frances . . .
In the meantime I’ll be in touch.
I’ll be visiting Julie at The Point after she’s done her Harmony gig. Then I’ll be in town.
Everyone, please check out Giulietta Designs, Harmony WV, mid August.