In the ongoing debate about the proposed Hornby bike lane, this note just went in from DVBIA director Charles Gauthier, outlining concerns passed on to him about it from a commercial realtor.
Another perspective to enrich this debate, which I think is an important one. It’s about far more than just this bike lane. Cities everywhere are trying to work out how to incorporate ways to make cycling safer and more viable, while producing as little impact as possible on other uses.
What Vancouver chooses as a solution will affect the future of more cycling lanes. If the city makes a decision that has a negative impact on a lot of businesses and ends up being perceived as a public failure, that will impact future willingness to put in more lanes. (Historical example 1: The bad implementation of the Burrard bike trial in 1996 killed any future trials for more than a decade.)
If the city can find a solution that a majority (it will never be everyone) can support, the chances of more bike lanes and more cycling are higher.
On to the latest analysis:
From: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 19:27:52
To: Mayorandcouncil@Vancouver. Ca<[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Cc: Jerry Dobrovolny<[email protected]>; Peter.
judd@vancouver. ca<[email protected]>; Lon
LaClaire<[email protected]>
Subject: Additional comments re. the proposed Hornby Street bicycle
lanes from a commercial realtor’s perspectiveA former commercial realtor sent me this e-mail and agreed that I could
forward it to you on the condition that I not identify him/her. He/she
is concerned with reprisals that may arise if his/her identity is
disclosed.I hope that you will give the comments your utmost consideration as you
deliberate tomorrow. The points below underscore that there is no
business impact analysis undertaken prior to following through on these
kind of projects, and there should be so that you have a full
understanding of the impacts.The comments are as follows:
1. Retailers lease space for their type of business. A ‘destination’
retailer with infrequent purchases, doesn’t depend on front door
parking. People seek out those retailers, and drive around the block if
need be, for their services.A ‘convenience’ retailer rely on frequent customer trips, facilitated by
easy, close and accessible parking. Hornby is filled with such
convenience retailers that lease space on that street because it offers
convenient, and ample parking. Removing those stalls, and
relocating them 1-3 blocks away is hardly ‘convenient’ for customers,
who may then shop elsewhere if it’s more convenient.Loss of 158 parking stalls on Hornby is significant. Here’s a
conservative estimate of that. Conservatively, 158 parking stalls, used
an average 1 hour a day, 10 hours a day, 7 days a week, with 1.25
occupants per vehicle, represents almost 14,000 potential customers,
too many for Hornby’s small businesses to lose. Relocating those stalls
1 – 3 blocks away doesn’t replace that loss.2. Hornby is the wrong street for a bike lane, due to the large amount
of businesses, and the heavily used parking stalls. I recently observed
the following on a weekday, mid-morning:Hornby has 3 times more retailers (approximately 62 storefronts) than
Howe, Seymour and Richard streets (they each have about 20-23
storefronts).Hornby has almost twice the parking as Howe and Seymour, (both of those
streets had parking on only one side of the street). Mid morning, every
one of Hornby’s metered stalls was occupied! Not so for Howe and
Seymour. Richards has parking meters on both sides of the streets, but
at the same time (mid morning), 104 of the parking spots on Richards
were empty.Therefore, Hornby’s parking is heavily relied on, and would be duly
missed, while the streets to the east of Hornby have enough empty stalls
for a bike lane, or, didn’t have parking on one side, to allow for a
bike lane.My point being, why didn’t the City evaluate this in more detail (# of
businesses, parking usage), and look at alternative north/south bike
lanes east of Hornby? Why haven’t alternative, ‘less disruptive to
business’ north/south routes been explored?” Parking on Hornby is highly
sought after, not so on other streets, so why isn’t a bike lane
proposed for the streets where there would be no impact to parking?The City fails to realize businesses take all the financial risk.
Businesses sign 5 year leases based on a fixed set of factors, one of
them being parking. The businesses pay the property taxes, which would
be higher because of the ample street parking. That parking leads to
higher sales, which leads to higher rents being charged, which leads to
higher building values, which leads to higher property taxes which the
businesses pay.Charles
Charles Gauthier
Executive Director
Downtown Vancouver Business Improvement Association
77 responses so far ↓
1 Roger Kemble // Oct 5, 2010 at 9:41 am
PS . . . Burrard Bridge cyclists only . . . pedestrian on the sidewalk. . . .
The auto has had the run of the city, to no one’s particular advantage . . .
Now it is time to try something else . . .
2 Roger Kemble // Oct 5, 2010 at 9:42 am
PPS . . . stop gossiping and ORGANIZE
3 IanS // Oct 5, 2010 at 9:54 am
@Mark Allerton #45,
I agree completely. The Dunsmuir bike lane has been in place for months. IMO, the DVBIA should be canvassing its members in that area and, to the extent it is able to do so, assembling data to support its assertion. In the absence of such data, or even such efforts, I think it’s reasonable to infer that the Dunsmuir Bike lane has not had a detrimental effect on those businesses.
4 Chris Porter // Oct 5, 2010 at 10:34 am
Global TV interviewed some of the small business owners on Dunsmuir last night (http://www.globaltvbc.com/video/index.html?releasePID=udlEKdwcB3UM_LfObZDOnx_OC3eaQ5H3 7:50 mark) and they said business has gone up since the bike lane has been installed.
5 Chris Porter // Oct 5, 2010 at 10:34 am
Hat tip to Average Joe Cyclist for mentioning the Global TV bit:
http://averagejoecyclist.com/?p=955
6 Bill McCreery // Oct 5, 2010 at 10:43 am
@ Michael 1. I thought Granville would be an obvious candidate but then, after looking @ it, it’s not. The buses are to frequent & there are frequently to many @ once so there is not the length for a ‘separated’ lane. As well because of the placement of the bus lanes & street lighting, etc. there is a width problem. There are other options however. The City, unfortunately has not looked @ them.
7 boohoo // Oct 5, 2010 at 11:54 am
that sounds nice and scary rf, but I’m quite sure it’s pure speculation 😉
8 spartikus // Oct 5, 2010 at 11:57 am
For the interested, the Sun’s Jeff Lee and Chris Keam are live tweeting the Hornby debate in Council:
http://twitter.com/Chris_Keam
And for Jeff’s feed, replace Chris_Keam with SunCivicLee
9 spartikus // Oct 5, 2010 at 11:59 am
Like moving the business to Toronto and Montreal.
Where bike lanes are being constructed at the same rate as they are in Vancouver.
Vancouver also has that lower tax burden.
10 Lewis N. Villegas // Oct 5, 2010 at 12:09 pm
“Framing Robson Square”
Joe Just Joe 46
Your sentiments capture the concept beautifully.
I have not read the staff report—link anyone—and going to another street will inevitably open more cans of worms.
However, what you have envisioned is a civic gesture of noble proportions.
11 Wayne // Oct 5, 2010 at 12:28 pm
Francis, I usually agree with your reasoning but I don’t agree with you on the Burrard Bike Lane. That project failed miserably not because the city made the wrong choice for a bike route. It failed because west side motorists raised a hew and cry and the councillors of the day buckled almost immediately. I suspect, but don’t specifically recall, that the DVBIA was just as vehemently opposed to it in ’96 as they were prior to the recent trial. Who can say how far bicycling in Vancouver was set back as a result of that scuttled experiment.
I’m not impressed by, and neither should city council or planners be, by the opinion of an anonymous paranoid who may or may not be a realtor who may or may not have taken a mid-morning stroll up and down Howe and Hornby Sts. and who has dubious math skills.
12 mike // Oct 5, 2010 at 12:55 pm
What about all the INCREASE in buying power with the influx of bikers. Bikers shop too; these businesses should be spending their energy on how to best accomodate their new two-wheeled customers.
13 ThinkOutsideABox // Oct 5, 2010 at 1:07 pm
rf: Change works both ways boohoo. Like moving the business to Toronto and Montreal.
boohoo: that sounds nice and scary rf, but I’m quite sure it’s pure speculation
spartikus: Vancouver also has that lower tax burden.
Actually @boohoo, @spartikus, Vancouver has been bleeding productions to Toronto and Montreal for about a year now since both Quebec and Ontario introduced aggressive tax incentives that are enough to tip a modestly budgeted project to flee.
Vancouver has the lower property tax burden on the individual, but that’s irrelevant to production flight to Ontario and Quebec where productions have a lower tax burden there.
Vancouver on the other hand had raised location permits while there is a further incentive by the province to shoot outside the studio zone which is why Langley had been made such a popular location, where Vancouver crew must drive much farther to.
14 spartikus // Oct 5, 2010 at 1:19 pm
You’re right, TOAB.
15 IanS // Oct 5, 2010 at 1:26 pm
This is a bit of a tangent, but I used to represent a company in the movie industry, and my client told me that one of the big problems facing productions wanting to work in Vancouver was the lack of parking. According to my client, productions were choosing to film outside downtown where possible because of this problem. Just to be clear, he wasn’t speaking about bike lanes or anything like that.. this was a couple of years ago… just about problems caused by a lack of parking in general.
I have no idea as to whether bike lanes will add to this problem or whether the lack of parking continues to be a concern, but, based on that information, I believe that available parking is an issue which film companies take into account in deciding where to work.
16 boohoo // Oct 5, 2010 at 1:36 pm
Businesses will always whine about not enough parking. They all want to have enough parking spots so that on the single busiest day of the year everyone can have a spot. And the other 364 days who cares.
Is that the model we should aim for?
17 Roger Kemble // Oct 5, 2010 at 1:37 pm
I am not sure whether to be amused or cry at our penchant for shallow gossip.
We, and I include myself, flit from one diverting conversation to another. We announce with deep convictions our solutions to, DTES, Marine Gateway, OV bicycles and on and on and on.
Do important issues slip our radar because we have satisfactorily dealt them? Is our attention span so utterly capricious?
The bicycle issue is far too pivotal for a GREEN VACOUVER than obsequiously awaiting the pleasure of DVBIA: they have no more power than we abjure to them.
All the surveys in the world are only as good as responders’ imaginations and awareness of alternatives.
Are we willing to settle for half measures that blow the whole thing at the first accident?
No!
There is an alternative:
An excusive, well mapped, continuous, interconnected route dedicated to cyclists only. One step beyond the WOONERF.
There is no reason why a carefully planned, for bicycle, on the right-of-way, and pedestrians, on the sidewalk, cannot work. I include in this vision a dedicated Burrard Bridge.
For autos approaching from the east Granville Bridge is more convenient: from west it is a minor detour.
Accordingly, an ambulatory and cycling public will be closer to the street side stores, enhancing their business, and other amenities.
Autos will have their own designated place so we know where they are, relegating fumes and noise away from crowded streets.
To settle for half measure guarantees endless complaining.
Now I understand the concept is radical but, clearly, this blog demonstrates a critical mass.
If well organized a dedicated route could be a potent force if we have a clear vision. Many Hall-istas are on side and no doubt many others if we give them the confidence to speak up.
I am not suggesting more interminable pubic hearings, surveys and reports. We all know the score. Is there an aspiring leader out there?
Just do it!
And when the dust settles the city will be a more peaceful and cleaner place to be.
18 Chris Keam // Oct 5, 2010 at 1:56 pm
The meeting heard from three speakers and is now adjourned until 7:30pm tonight. Unfortunately, I can’t be there, but if anyone else will be the resident Twit, I’d love to be able to follow along at home. If you’re looking for a rundown of the morning’s proceedings you can ref. the link Spartikus provided upthread as well as my other Twitter Account Pacific Pedicabs, where I had to switch after I exceeded the Twitter daily limit of updates. I didn’t even know there was such a limit, so I apologize for seemingly ending the updates in mid-session.
19 Chris Keam // Oct 5, 2010 at 1:58 pm
@IanS “However, to the extent that you are suggesting that that is my assertion, I urge you to read what I actually wrote, in context. If you do that, you will see that I have suggested nothing of the sort.”
Sorry Ian. It wasn’t my intent to make that suggestion of a link. Two separate thoughts.
20 IanS // Oct 5, 2010 at 2:00 pm
@Chris:
You write: “Sorry Ian. It wasn’t my intent to make that suggestion of a link. Two separate thoughts.”
To the extent that you are suggesting that I have ever had two separate thoughts in my life, I deny that that is the case.
😉
21 mezzanine // Oct 5, 2010 at 2:46 pm
@ Thinkoutsideabox @62,
if anything, the HST will really help film production here in BC, as things like costumes and props were charged PST. Even used goods bought in BC, or props brought up from the USA were due PST, which was not recoverable.
http://www.sbr.gov.bc.ca/documents_library/bulletins/sst_076.pdf
ON and Quebec do have higher tax rebates for productions (~30% there versus 14% here).
[/tangent]
22 ThinkOutsideABox // Oct 5, 2010 at 4:10 pm
(Sorry all for the topic creep…)
@mezzanine, yes the HST directly helps production budget line items by removing applicable PST. However the largest chunk of the budget by far is labour to which PST never applied. And given Ontario also has the HST, BC doesn’t have a competitive advantage in this regard.
23 solitary man // Oct 5, 2010 at 7:12 pm
I don’t think the issue is whether Hornby is a go or nogo or if whether Howe or Granville might be better alternatives …
The real question or debate should be do we have a dedicated bike lane every 3rd or 4th street right across the downtown core.
24 Bill Smolick // Oct 6, 2010 at 8:18 am
Where do they get these numbers? Their driven by ideology! These people don’t vote and they shouldn’t be supporting them! They’re crazy. I don’t think they know how to count1
Whoops…sorry…I’m channeling George Puil from his appearance on Stephen Quinn’s show yesterday.
George Puil, in case you were uncertain, is a complete effing idiot. So is whoever did this study.
25 Suzanne // Oct 6, 2010 at 11:14 pm
I’m neutral-to-positive on the bike lane and don’t buy into the idea that it will kill streetside business, but here’s my question.
How much meter parking revenue do you think this costs the city?
26 Frances Bula // Oct 6, 2010 at 11:27 pm
@Suzanne. I did hear an estimate at one point, but when I went just now and looked at the city report that council voted on yesterday, it says there will be loss of revenue from the Hornby meters but they expect to make up much of that from meters on other nearby streets that will get more heavily used.
27 Simoniz // Oct 8, 2010 at 11:12 am
Am I not allowed to patronize businesses on Hornby because I ride my bike? I still don’t understand why businesses think their customers only drive cars.