I’m on vacation for the next two weeks — eavesdropping as usual on life in the city, but here’s your open forum, as usual, for when I’m gone. Can we match the 350-something comments on a recent post that turned into a brawl over, what else, the Kits bike lanes? Hope so. There’s so much to discuss:
– Mayor Gregor Robertson calling the NPA a party of “angry old white men.”
– The arrival of a new party by ex-COPEsters, called OneCity
– The NPA’s recent fundraiser (any news from there, anyone? Anyone there call Visionites a party of “overly cheerful know-nothing youngsters”?)
– The apparent threat by CP to start using the Arbutus tracks again to run trains. (Sounds like a warning shot over the head to me.)
If I see someone start an interesting new topic that’s buried in this thread, I’ll pull it up into its own blog post.
386 responses so far ↓
1 boohoo // May 26, 2014 at 6:24 pm
@347
You’re absolutely right this is FB’s blog and she is the dictator when it comes to determining what can and cannot be said.
I’m happy to see gman post whatever garbage he wants, he does nothing but reveal his true colours. And like others before him and others yet to come, his own words make sink his ship of relevancy.
I can still condone what he says, but unless FB bans it, he’s free to say it. I do wonder why, even though he is free to say it, others aren’t condoning his comments.
Free speech doesn’t mean you are free to say whatever you want without consequence.
2 boohoo // May 26, 2014 at 6:33 pm
oops…’…own words sink his ship….’
3 Chris Keam // May 26, 2014 at 7:28 pm
“If you point out some of the downsides of multiculturalism you are a racist.
If you suggest that perhaps civil unions would have been preferable to same sex marriage (the government gets out of the marriage business altogether) you are a homophobe.
Point out the mismanagement of some aboriginal bands finances and again you are a racist.
And I guess if you point out the wasted funding in the DTES I guess that makes you a classist. (this is a new one to me).”
With the exception of the final example, I’m not sure any of those topics have been discussed here, or those accusations leveled in response. In other words, strawman arguments.
A modicum of civility and an expectation of accuracy in no way impedes anyone’s ability to make their point. An online community that has an expectation of both will be an enjoyable place to disagree. No harm or impediment to freedom of speech can come from applying a small measure of manners or basic fact-checking before commenting.
Why would someone encourage and support vitriolic and inaccurate claims? The simplest answer is that they are afraid that their arguments don’t stand up to scrutiny and it’s in their interest to poison the well and discourage an even-handed conversation.
4 skippy // May 26, 2014 at 8:31 pm
And of course Gregor Robertson’s comment about “angry old white men”…racist, sexist and ageist. Let’s hope he musters all of his IQ points, or better yet PR department, to up his game. Noteworthy that the same infantile ageist comments were levelled against the Save Kits Beach/Hadden Park group.
5 spartikus // May 26, 2014 at 10:20 pm
The problem with all censorship is who decides.
You seem to be under the mistaken illusion that posts or posters get banned when a commenting community adopts a code of conduct.
The goal is to ensure everyone gets their point across in a constructive manner.
Win-win, see?
I understand that some will consider certain statements racist, homophobic, sexist and so on while others will not. There’s a certain tension there, yes. But you wouldn’t be banned.
I think the purpose is to make you think how you are expressing yourself, and whether you can make your point as concisely and as well supported as possible.
If you do that then 99 times out of 100 you won’t be exposing yourself to such charges.
But it’s up to Frances.
6 F.H.Leghorn // May 27, 2014 at 9:33 am
Ideologues prefer uniformity of opinion. Dissent is treason. How often have we had to endure the tiresome repetition of Leftoid “loyalty oaths”. Love the poor, hate the rich, check; unions good, employer bad, check; cars bad, bikes good, check; meat bad, veg good, check; right down the politically correct line.
The problem is this: the only time you get unanimity or concensus is through intimidation. The only sensible goal is mutual understanding, not total agreement.
7 Chris Keam // May 27, 2014 at 9:39 am
Oh lord, the hyperbole is hilarious. The suggestion being bandied about is simply to show some manners, drop the idiotic name-calling and labelling, and in the words of your math teacher – ‘show your work’.
Your comments sir, are what stink of intimidation:
“do I hear violins? Suck it up, buttercup. It’s just words.”
8 boohoo // May 27, 2014 at 9:46 am
@356
Are you serious in that you only see one side of this? Or are you just proving your own complaint?
9 Bill // May 27, 2014 at 3:24 pm
@sparticus #355
“You seem to be under the mistaken illusion that posts or posters get banned when a commenting community adopts a code of conduct.”
A way back in #98 Frank Ducote wrote:
“FB – it’s time to stop this character assassination and coarseness once and for all! Outrageous!”
Somehow I really don’t think he (and others that have weighed in) was envisioning that FB would establish a code of conduct that was strictly aspirational. Rarely are codes of conduct established without sanctions for violations because what would they accomplish without them?
10 Chris Keam // May 27, 2014 at 3:48 pm
Why don’t you ask Mr Ducote (and others who have weighed in) what they are envisioning, instead of thinking you are a mind reader?
11 Kenji // May 27, 2014 at 4:01 pm
Y’alls get very worried about the level of vitriol in here, when, relatively to the rest of the Net, it is an oasis of wit and love of city – with a dash of self-righteous contempt at times, sure, but not downright sewage. And frankly I appreciate that.
So I don’t mind the current heat level, but would not want it to get worse or to drive away the fine folk that might not want to post here and therefore teach me the things that I came here to learn.
How to achieve? Well, self control. Occasional mod warnings. Then deletion if necessary.
Who’s up to be a moderator? (NB: not me)
While we are talking improvements to Bulablog, could we have some threading? That way people can respond to the main issue, or get off on side tangents, and readers can easily tell which is which.
Just my $0.02.
By the way I love you all.
12 boohoo // May 27, 2014 at 4:06 pm
@360
lol Because his predetermined stereotypes would be challenged. Can’t have that now can we.
@361
Yes, a threaded forum would be fantastic.
13 Bill // May 27, 2014 at 4:23 pm
@CK #360
“I addressed a remark by Mr Remmy. You needn’t have stuck your nose in it.”
Remember that remark, Chris? Do as you say and not as you do, right Chris? And do you remember writing this:
“Trust me, I’ve looked long and hard at my comments on this blog and realize where my shortcomings are w/r/t using the Internet with some degree of respect for others.”
Obviously not long and hard enough.
14 Bill // May 27, 2014 at 4:37 pm
@boohoo #362
In the spirit of our kinder and gentler comments section, I resisted ridiculing you for your apparent misuse of the word “condone” in #351 giving your comment the exact opposite meaning from what I think you meant. But of course, not being a mind reader I should really ask, are you really able to overlook gman’s comments and you are surprised others are not overlooking his comments as well?
15 Chris Keam // May 27, 2014 at 4:42 pm
“Do as you say and not as you do”
Not at all. I have not illusions of perfect action or thought. Everybody can work on their online etiquette. But you’re stuck in the past, carrying that stuff around. Sucks to be you I guess.
cheers,
CK
16 jenables // May 27, 2014 at 4:54 pm
349 F.H.Leghorn // May 26, 2014 at 5:15pm As flame wars go this site is pretty tame, even the late, lamented waltyss.
Am i missing something here? As much as i can butt heads with people, and enjoy open debate (until it deteriorates into shit) i would be sad if that were indeed the case. To all of you, those who i agree with and those i don’t, it would make me really sad if you died. Just so you know. I like opposing points of view because the truth or solution so often lies in between. Plus the differences between people and why they think the way they do is fascinating.
17 Chris Keam // May 27, 2014 at 5:06 pm
“We’re not as bad behaved as jerks on other websites” isn’t much of credo IMO. 🙂
Absolutely we need opposing views. But I think we also need some semblance of accuracy in our statements. Some posts and posters are spreading misinformation. That’s not helpful or ethical (again IMO) unless the intent is to sabotage the progress that comes from letting opposing views be heard and considered.
Who benefits when falsehoods are perpetuated? Historically, not the community at large.
18 F.H.Leghorn // May 27, 2014 at 5:59 pm
“Who benefits when falsehoods are perpetuated?”. Well, let’s see: advertising agencies; marketing departments; candidates for political office; “communications” staff (i.e.hacks); political parties; democratic socialists (love that phrase); religions; astrologers and sooth-sayers of all kinds; and people who charge by the word.
19 F.H.Leghorn // May 27, 2014 at 6:01 pm
I ought to have added BCTF to that list. No respect for the truth, no respect for the law and no respect for the rights of others.
20 Kirk // May 27, 2014 at 6:10 pm
He doesn’t need me to defend him. But, I’ve met gman in real life, as have many others on this site, at one of the beer nights. And, he’s a pretty cool dude to share a beer with. He’s been posting here for a long time, and this was his first real angry post.
He obviously takes this topic more, uh, passionately than I, and got frustrated to the point of getting mad. But, hey, that happens. I do that with my friends and family sometimes too. And, I’m willing to cut him some slack since he’s not some noob troll. Assuming, it will only be a one time kinda thing, of course….
21 Kirk // May 27, 2014 at 6:19 pm
@368 F.H.Leghorm
Everybody on your list:
http://m.wikihow.com/Spot-a-Sociopath
22 jenables // May 27, 2014 at 6:49 pm
Umm.. foghorn.. Does the Supreme court count as the law? I believe they sided with the teachers regarding the lieberals nasty bargaining tactics.
23 Bill // May 27, 2014 at 9:08 pm
@Chris Keam
It’s OK Chris. Your good buddy boohoo thinks everyone is a hypocrite so there is no need to be defensive. If you prefer, we can just say you have “consistency” issues (something else to work on?). Less harsh than hypocritical don’t you think?
24 boohoo // May 27, 2014 at 9:20 pm
@373
You got me, a spelling mistake. Feel free to ignore my point due to it.
I’m not saying everyone is a hypocrite, just some of you. I can only imagine the, shall we say angst, if someone from the ‘other side’ said the mindless garbage he did.
25 boohoo // May 27, 2014 at 9:22 pm
@370
Anyone can get mad but it doesn’t excuse bottom dwelling personal insults. And I note he is mia since then.
26 Chris Keam // May 27, 2014 at 11:42 pm
@Bill:
Why Europe works
“All this adds up to a European dream: dozens of nations living together in harmony and freedom, with unmatched exchanges across borders and with the world’s highest quality of life if not highest incomes.”
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/51dd9432-db03-11e3-8273-00144feabdc0.html#axzz32xs4GWcu
27 Chow // May 28, 2014 at 7:52 am
Kirk @ 370
If you think this is gman’s first vitriolic rant, then you haven’t been reading posts on this blog very long.
And somehow, someone who purports to be a cool dude in person, but a complete a-hole in the anonymity of the web, is an even bigger knob. Or else has seriously unresolved anger issues. Or both.
28 Bill // May 28, 2014 at 10:46 am
@Chris Keam #376
“Why Europe works”
Now who’s cherry picking one sentence out of a particular reference? This was also written:
“Admittedly, one form of interconnection still barely exists in Europe: labour mobility. Of the EU’s 506 million citizens, only 14 million (or 2.8 per cent) live in another EU state to their own.” …..
“Free movement of labour is a European reality only in London, Luxembourg and Brussels.”…..
“Rather, European mobility consists of countless daily exchanges, great and small.”
And what is happening in that bastion of free movement of labour, London?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10854566/David-Cameron-draws-up-immigration-laws-to-foil-Ukip.html
Yes, it is likely to become a lot less free.
I am in favour of immigration and the Temporary Worker Program in concept because they both can increase the wealth of Canada as well as the wealth of the immigrant or temporary worker but I do not support open borders. Laissez faire immigration is just as harmful and undesirable as laissez faire capitalism.
But by all means continue to dream of that idyllic future where we are all citizens of the world, free to migrate wherever the social programs are most generous; where, in an unprecedented act of generosity, all sellers of real estate reduce their prices by 30% solving the affordability problem in Vancouver; and where Handy Dart is no longer needed because octogenarians (boohoo – these are people who are between 80 and 89 years old and not the cephalopods whose tentacles (these are arms, not gonads) are delicious when served grilled) are riding their bicycles to their doctor appointments.
29 Chris Keam // May 28, 2014 at 11:27 am
“But by all means continue to dream of that idyllic future where we are all citizens of the world, free to migrate wherever the social programs are most generous; where, in an unprecedented act of generosity, all sellers of real estate reduce their prices by 30% solving the affordability problem in Vancouver; and where Handy Dart is no longer needed”
I know right? It sounds lovely. Thank you for articulating this achievable vision so well! When you put it that way it seems less like a dream and more like a question of leadership and community will. I feel like it’s more doable than ever!
30 Roger Kemble // May 28, 2014 at 12:02 pm
Enjoy 1000 years . . .
http://loiter.co/v/watch-as-1000years-of-european-boarders-change/
. . . of European border change Chris @ #380
31 Chris Keam // May 29, 2014 at 7:03 am
http://thetyee.ca/News/2014/05/29/Vancouver-Undocumented-Migrants-Sanctuary/
32 teririch // May 29, 2014 at 12:55 pm
@gman
If by any chance you are checking in on this blog…
I hope you are okay.
T.
33 Bill Lee // May 29, 2014 at 5:28 pm
Only 15 more to go. Crickets! 😀
34 spartikus // May 30, 2014 at 11:59 am
FWIW: Apparently the B.C. Supreme Court has just dismissed the WEN lawsuit over rental housing as political in nature.
35 Bill Lee // Jun 18, 2014 at 11:48 am
Darn! Never made it to 397 comments as did the PGR-Bl April hijacked discussion .
Vancouver election time: $50,000 dinners, $25,000 lunches, candidates coming and going + more April 8th, 2014 ·397 Comments
Just as well. Madame Bula only has 6 arms.
36 Doug Turner // Aug 11, 2014 at 9:40 pm
Dear Frances,
Re: Arbutus rail corridor. It’s true there is no longer freight customers nor connections thereto, nor to the port at the North end of the line, but the ‘creme’ do have something to fear. The CPR could use the track for storage of temporarily unneeded freight cars. They have filled up an otherwise derelict branch line on the prairies with such cars. The sight of miles of sidelined rail cars standing idle in Kerrisdale would , in all respects, be much more noisome than passing LRT trains! Pressure indeed!